MR. GLENN: This is Pat Glenn, from the Justice Department, and, to the best of my knowledge, the same order, that was circulated throughout all the departments, was circulated throughout the Department of Justice, and there are no records that we have. Any records we have are secondary records, certainly, from the cases, some of which, well-known, the previous, the atomic veterans= cases, there would be secondary source records. But they are still the agency records, so we did not go try to see if we have copies of what the Defense Department had, or something of that nature. But we asked our components, also, to search, and, to my knowledge, there is no such record.

MR. ALLINGHAM: May I follow that up?

MS. MELAMED: Yes. And then we will move on, to the next comment.

MR. ALLINGHAM: I don=t mean to consume time, but, my understanding is, for instance, with the Oregon prison experiments, that the Justice Department initiated the stoppage of medical follow­up of that, and that is the kind of thing that, it would seem to me, would have been covered by the Executive Order of the president, and should have been included in the report, if in fact that kind of a search was made.

MR. GLENN: Glenn, again, just to deal with the specifics, and I heard, for the first time, from the gentleman, today, who said, the U.S. attorney made some effort to stop. That is news to me. It is the first I have heard of it, and if that was something a U.S. attorney out in the field did, I don=t know the circumstances of it, but we can ask about it, now. Having heard about it, today, we can see if there is any substance to the allegation of what the U.S. attorney may or may not have done.

But, as I say, we asked all our component structure, ADo you have any records of human radiation experiments?@, and, as far as I know, none.

MS. MELAMED: I would now like to ask our expert, here, from the National Archives, to say a few words.

MS. RONAN: I must tell you, it always makes me nervous, when I come to a conference, and people talk about me, as an expert. But, I am Mary Ronan. I am from the National Archives.

As Elly said, I am here, as a resource person. There are two pamphlets, I put outside, on doing research at the National Archives, for anybody who is interested in them. In addition, we have begun to hit the 20^th century. We put our guide to the records of the National Archives online, and put some of our regional guides online, and we are putting more and more things online, so anyone who is interested in getting at us, that way, if you will let me know, and I will give you the site.

I am going to be very brief. I am going to tell you, that, in terms of the records that you all are talking about, one of the things that we did, is, work with agencies, both with Colonel Bailey=s people, and the Advisory Commission, as they came in, used their knowledge of their records, and our knowledge of their records, to help them find whatever we could find for them, that fell anyplace even remotely close to the order to provide records. We also worked with them, to deal with the issues of classification and declassification. Any number of these records, as you all clearly know, were declassified, and people within the agency worked to declassify them.

So what has happened, what happens, over Recommendation N1 17? We have begun, as Roger Anders said, to transfer records, more quickly, from certain components. The CIA is about to transfer to us about a thousand pages= worth of material. The Advisory Commission on Human Radiation transferred to us, about a month and a half ago, their paper documentation, and just this morning, we received from them their databases, which will allow us to more effectively make the collection available to people.

As Mr. Anders said, the Department of Energy is in the process of negotiating with the National Archives, to transfer about 3,000 cubic feet of records. For those of you who are not familiar with what a cubic foot of records looks like, if you would think about a case of Bud longnecks, that is about what the size of a cubic foot of records is. It is someplace between 2,500 and 3,000 pages, depending on how it is packed. So Roger and his staff are talking about transferring records, those records, to us. The only issue that remains to be settled, is the issue of the classification and declassification, for those records, and where they are going to be declassified.

We are also working with Colonel Bailey, and the rest of the Task Force members, to make sure that the records that they collect, and they gather, become permanently valuable, and are transferred to the National Archives, when those bodies no longer need them.

Ongoing, as the gentleman on the other side of me talked about, there is also Recommendation 18, and the evaluation of the CIA recordskeeping process. The National Archives started, several months ago, and hopes to finish, by the end of the fiscal year, an evaluation of the CIA recordskeeping methods, and make that then available. What we are also doing, is, working very hard on implementing the new Executive Order on classification and declassification. We have limited, what is called, derivative declassification authority. We are using that, as much as possible, to declassify, and make records available. We are also providing both space and expertise to agencies that come in, to have them identify the older records, and make them open and available. So that is the kind of thing we are doing.

MS. MELAMED: Thank you.

I think, maybe, it would be appropriate, now, to identify discussion leaders, if they would like to say a few words. Mr. Bires, would you like to go, first?

MR. BIRES: Yes, I would.

My name is Bill Bires, Alliance of Atomic Veterans. I live in Portland, Oregon.

I would like to applaud the efforts of the DOE, and the DOD, in their bringing forward the documents, and declassification of the documents. I would like to ask them to redouble their efforts, and, I live in Portland, and the archives are here. And so, I would like to, in this age of electronics, it seems to me that there should be some way that I can access the material, that is available to me.

My journey, here, began one cold morning, on the Nevada desert, November, of 1951. I had gone through basic training, with A Company, the 231^st Combat Engineers, and we wound up down at what was called, then, Desert Rock 1, in a series of nuclear tests called Buster Jangle. We prepared the animal pens, and we put in the gun emplacements, and we put the trucks, and we distributed the various materiel that was to be tested, at the various points, distances, from Ground Zero.

So, one morning in November, we are falling out. It is dark, it is cold, and the stars are out. And they start the countdown. And it is ten, down to zero.

Zero! Nothing happens. I can tell, right off, we are in trouble. The bomb did not go off.

So we went through the rest of the day, continued our work, and as, I was a mechanic, but I was pressed into service, as a truck driver, at the test site. And so, while working at the test site, this tower is sitting over there, where the bomb is on top of the tower, and there are two guys going up this tower, to hook the wires up to the bomb.

Wow!

A few days later, they get the wires all hooked up, and the bomb goes.

I stayed there, at what was called the forward area. We were right at the edge of the test site, all the time. I was there, for seven nuclear detonations, the largest of which was 32 kilotons.

So that is a little bit about the background, my background. Intentionally, I went to Chemical, Biological, and Radiological Warfare School, also, in Geifu, Japan, on my way to Korea, so I got another shot of it, there.

Now, what I was, the discussion is about openness in government, and I was wondering if openness implies truthfulness, or honesty. The representative that was here, today, from the Defense Nuclear Agency, talks about the degree of exposure, and I suggest, to you, that I see the exposure, through a different frame of reference, than she sees it, and perhaps this is true, with many of the people sitting in these bureaus. They don=t see it, through the same frame of reference, that we see it, through. And I would like you to consider that, and it has been mentioned, before, that there is a lot of, a great deal of expertise, out here, in this audience, and the government certainly should, and could, take advantage of that. I would like to see that happen.

Now, the pall of secrecy, that descended on the government, by the advent of the nuclear era, has done as much, or more, to alienate the public, and the government, than any other single issue, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many others. The distance between the people, and their government, puts the people in an adversarial position with their government, and that is not where we are supposed to be.

I bridle at the term, Astakeholder,@ for example. I don=t want to be a Astakeholder.@ I am a person. I am not a victim. I am not a stakeholder. I am a human being. The dehumanization that the term, Astakeholder,@ brings along with it, enables us to be treated, as nonhuman objects. And this should not happen. And, so, the labeling of us, as stakeholders, really angers me, or upsets me.

Ms. O=Leary=s statement, she made, at this, a press conference, or a speech, at the press club, she made a couple of years ago. Anthony and I were in town, and she was talking about the department of classification. And then, she began talking about department of declassification.

And I really thought that was all right. And then, I began to think. Some people examined these documents, and classified them. Now, we are going to have another group of people come along, and declassify them. You know, I don=t know how the process would take place, but I sure welcome the idea, of declassification, and I think that declassification should be that: declassification.

It seems to me that openness in government has rapidly approached the point of becoming an oxymoron, but, it is us and them, and it should not be that way. And I applaud the efforts of the Commission, and the various departments, cabinet positions involved, in their efforts to bring about some sort of resolution to this problem of us versus them. Thank you.

(Applause.)

MS. MELAMED: Thank you, very much.

And we have one more discussion leader, Dot McLeod.

MS. McLEOD: Okay. I am Dot McLeod. I am a member, our group is called ITSOR. It is Indigent, Transients, and Survivors, of Oak Ridge.

My father was one of the early construction workers, in the Forties, at Oak Ridge. The workers, the construction workers, who went to Oak Ridge, to help build the plant, for the Manhattan Project, were called, Atransients@ ­­ I don=t know if this was a government term, or where it came from ­­ and most of the people were indigent. They were recruited from several states, surrounding Tennessee, to go there, and work. My father went there, to take a job, to support his family.

I, like Colonel Bailey feel very honored to be here, because I do think this is a history-making event, happening. You have seen grass roots organizations come together, with the Task Force, in a diversity of races, different religions, cultures, and we have all come together, on one issue, that radiation exposure is deadly to your health.

While you, as administrators of the government, have looked at volumes of reports, documents, and records, we watch our families, friends, neighbors, get sick, and die. Our experience comes from on­hand experience, and seeing it, firsthand. And when you look at the documents, you lose the human, realistic values, I think.

I have a couple of suggestions, on things that I have made notes on, during the week, or yesterday and today, that I have heard. One of the things, on informed consent, I would like to see the first statement on an informed consent form to say, ATHIS IS AN EXPERIMENT,@ in all­caps letters. A lot of times, you are dealing with people who kind of intimidated by doctors, or whatever. They think the doctors have everything, that the doctors, their main concern is the patients= best interest, and I know that a lot of doctors are like that, but, sometimes, in zealous researchers, it may not be that case. And another suggestion would be, a program similar to the guardian ad litem program, for children, maybe institute something similar to that, with a person going in, for treatment, that is an experimental procedure, have someone represent them, or go in, that can kind of interpret for them, and make them understand what the consent means.

As I said, the Task Force is an organization, now, of grass routes, small organizations, sometimes large. There is a lot of people in these organizations that still don=t have records, don=t know what happened to their families, or why they are seeing the different illnesses and deaths in their family, but they are happening. And I am glad, with the openness, but I need, I think that something needs to be addressed, on where no records can be found.

The Task Force is not going to go away. We are here. Some of these people have worked on the Task Force, for 20 years or more, on this issue. I have been involved, for about a year and a half, maybe two years, because I did not believe the United States Government would experiment on their own people. But I did my own research, and I believe that, I know that. We all know that, everybody in this room, now.

We need to come together, to find some solutions to all these problems, that have been raised in the last two days. Thank you.

(Applause.)

MS. MELAMED: Thank you, very much.

I think all the panelists have done a really nice job, of expressing a lot of different views. We have many people who want to comment, now.

MS. McLEOD: Madam Moderator? I have a list of people.

MS. MELAMED: Do you have a list? That would be fine.

MS. McLEOD: Yes.

MS. MELAMED: If you would like to take that. We are going to have to.

MS. McLEOD: How many minutes do we have?

MS. MELAMED: Well, in theory, this panel was supposed to end, at 2:30, but I think we could go to 3:00, or a little after 3:00, if that would be all right with everybody, maybe go another ten minutes, so people can get their.

VOICE: Forget the afternoon break.

MS. MELAMED: You are willing to forget the afternoon break?

VOICES: Yes.

MS. MELAMED: Okay. How about?

MS. McLEOD: Okay. All right.

MS. MELAMED: All right. So we will go another, say, 3:15, or 3:20, and that will give us a half an hour for discussion. So I will start with the people whom Dot McLeod has, on her list, and then, after that, we will get the people who are not already there. And, the sooner we get started, the more people who will get a chance to speak.

MS. AZIM: I think we are going to start with her list, and then, we will get to everyone else, so everybody is going to get a chance to speak. We will make sure of that.

Okay. Peter Lewis.

MR. LEWIS: My name is Pete Lewis, and I am from Uniontown, Pennsylvania, and I am also a radiation victim, biomedical victim. I am from Germany. That is where I was born. The experiments started, in Germany. They did some biomedical experiments. One of them is so gross, I will not even say what it is. And it spilled over, into the United States. It continued, here. Battle Creek, Michigan. From there, Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

At Walter Reed Army Medical Center, the AFIP building, that is the pathology building, in the basement, those experiments went on, in there. Here are the pictures, right here. These pictures, these photographs, were taken, in the basement. Here is what we have.

Oh. Boy Scouts. I am in these pictures.

Here are some of them. Here is a machine, it is called a, ooh! I don=t have it. What happened to it? Anyway, here is a part of it. It should be in there, Carol. It is called a counting machine. Of course, to count the machine, they have got to put something in you, to count, am I right? I mean, if you have got a bank, there are no pennies in it, you don=t count it. You have got to put pennies in it, to count it. So they had other machines, there. These are radiation machines. Round cylinders.

One of them was a round cylinder. It had a radiation symbol it. They stick you in it. Your head is sticking out of it. They shoot the radiation through you. They can stick you in a counter, see how much the body absorbs. I do believe, though, that was the first CAT scan. Experimental. It is wrong. But, kids, you don=t experiment on kids. You don=t even experiment with kids, in an experimental machine. You don=t even know if the machine is going to work right. And you definitely don=t shoot radiation through a child.

This government ­­ here is the counter ­­ this government bombed Hiroshima. Nagasaki. My goodness! Those are the two biggest test labs I have ever seen! Why do we need any more test labs on radiation? We know what radiation does.

Can=t get no records. That is a shame. Too bad, huh? Look what I got. A record. This is a record book, that was kept in the bottom of the pathology record. Let me read it.

AWalter Reed Army Institute of Research. Division of Nuclear Medicine.@ Now, we have a start. We have a record. I asked, ASir, ma=am, here is a record, a picture of it. Can we dig it up? My name is on it. Unfortunately, my name was put into a number. In other words, the changed the names and numbers, and stuck that on here. Let=s dig up these records, okay? I would appreciate it.@

After this, I went into another building, about a year later. It is called the Isolation Ward. That was an experience. I had an entire ward, a little bit bigger than this, to myself. Well, that was fun, for a kid. The first day in there, I took off. You know how kids are. I was about, maybe, ten or twelve. Went next door. A bunch of soldiers, over there, playing chess. Well, I got in there, and I played chess with a guy. He did not pay much mind to me. I beat him. So, of course, all the other soldiers, they start teasing him about it, and it got serious. A crowd came around. I played him, a second game. Well, he started beating me, but I was saved, by a nurse. She came. She saw me. She said, AHey, you ain=t allowed in here!@

Away I went, back to the ward, by myself, again. This time, they kept a guard, a 24­hour guard, there, so I could not take off. I was not allowed to get any soda pop. I could not have any other foods. They fed me my foods. They took my stool, my urine. Boy, did they really poke holes in me! Both ankles, both sides. Knees, both sides. All over my hips, the back of my head. I believe they are called bone biopsies. I get visions, they have got this sharp thing. You stick it in, like a corkscrew, and take your flesh, your skin, your bone, and ffft! Got it! I don=t know how they do it, but that is just the way I figure. But I have got a lot of them, all over me. I even got stuff, left in my arm, that they forgot to take out, or whatever it is.

Now, I don=t, I am not angry, at today=s government, for what yesterday=s government did. Let=s get this clear, right now. Today=s government did not do these atrocities. Not at all. That was yesterday=s government. However, I am frustrated, because today=s government will not release the records. That is bad. I mean, they did not do it. What have they got to lose? Yesterday=s government did it. They are the ones who should hang their head in shame.

For the record, we do have some people, here, from the government, that, we hope they help. They want to help. I think they will help. So, my question is, will you please get my records? The one, I was in that laboratory. Oh, in the ward that I was in? They would knock me out, and take me into a laboratory, and I was totally out. This took place, for about six days. I have no idea what they did to me, in that laboratory, except, when I would come out, I had Band­aids, all over me. So I guess, Bengay, like that, or whoever made those Band­aids.

But, anyway, I am asking, can we get the records, please? I will give you the dates. I will make it easy for you, okay? I will make it very easy. And then I am done.

MS. MELAMED: I think, in response, it is certainly the intention of all the agencies to support the effort. Insofar as it is possible for us to get records, and to help people, or to help them find records ­­

MR. LEWIS: All right.

MS. MELAMED: ­­ and we welcome any information ­­

MR. LEWIS: Okay.

MS. MELAMED: ­­ that people can provide to us.

MR. LEWIS: The radiation, whatever it was? I was perfectly healthy. There was nothing wrong with me. Maybe I looked a little crazy.

Okay. That was, let=s see, that would have been September 20, 1958. Is anybody going to write that down, please? Okay. There should be records, on that day.

One week later, on a Thursday, that is when me and my sister went in. That is when we went in to the machine that had the radiation symbol on it. Boy, do I wish she was here, today, to testify with me! She has got three feet of dirt, on her, now, in Lebanon, Tennessee. She died, about four years ago. The doctor found like a crust, I guess, over her entire brain. Cancer. And he said, AYou had that, 20, 25 years.@ So it is easy to figure out where it came from.

The other, the other date, okay. That was my.

COL. BAILEY: Sir? If you could provide me a copy of that, before we leave, or?

MR. LEWIS: Sure.

MS. MELAMED: We will copy it.

Bob Zielinski, are you in the room? This is someone, also, from the Department of Energy, who, we will make sure. We will copy ­­

MR. LEWIS: Okay.

MS. MELAMED: ­­ this material. We will make sure he gets it, and ­­

MR. LEWIS: I will give you my entire statement, on this.

MS. MELAMED: ­­ he will be working with you ­­

MR. LEWIS: All right. Thank you.

MS. MELAMED: ­­ and we will, as well, to help you with that.

MR. LEWIS: Okay.

MS. MELAMED: We have a place, a specific ­­

MR. LEWIS: Okay.

MS. MELAMED: ­­ place set up, for that.

MR. LEWIS: You are from the National Archives? When this mess is over, I am going to donate these to you, okay? Let the people, in the year 2000 and after, see this, and they will, AHey, we don=t mess with stuff, again!@ Okay? Thank you.

MS. MELAMED: Thank you.

(Applause.)

MS. McLEOD: Madam Moderator, Peter testified before the Advisory Committee, in Knoxville. No one from the Department of Energy was there, to try to get help for him. This angers me.

MS. MELAMED: Well, certainly, we can understand that, and, while I don=t know the history of this, we really do have a system in place. Imperfect, sometimes. And I have to say that, sometimes, the Department of Energy does not have access to all records. But, certainly, we will ­­

MS. McLEOD: No.

MS. MELAMED: ­­ do our best to figure out if these are our records, or where those ­­

MS. McLEOD: Right.

MS. MELAMED: ­­ records would be.

MS. McLEOD: What angered me, was that, the Advisory Committee provided no one to tell him how to go about getting his records, or anything, at all. No support, emotional.

MS. AZIM: Do you want to call the next person, please, Dot?