MS. BAKER: My name is Doris Baker and I'm from Cincinnati Families of Radiation Victims Organizations from Cincinnati, Ohio.

Colonel Bailey, about a month or so ago there was a letter sent to me from the DOE and the DOD stating that I send my great grandmother's records, send the information so I could get my great grandmother's records, Gertrude Knorr, patient number 20, from you all. And you said that you can't talk about the litigation now because we're in Court. Why would you all send me an application asking me for a whole lot of information that I don't know anything about?

MS. CAMPOS-INFANTINO: We're taking up the time of the panel at this point. And if I could refocus this discussion, my understand of what this panel is supposed to be about, based on the agenda and previous discussions and planning, was to give stake holders an opportunity to discuss broadly issues about the ACHRE recommendations.

So if we could go back to that and focus on those issues and identify your concerns and how you suggest they be addressed, I think that would be most helpful at this point.

MR. BYRD: Are you done, ma'am?

MS. NELSON: Yes.

MR. BYRD: Ron Hamm, Vanderbilt Experiment Victims.

DR. HAMM: Thank you, Acie.

I'm Dr. Ron Hamm. That's not M.D. or Ph.D. A little jocularity there.

I'm a volunteer. I'm a chaplain, a lieutenant colonel in the United State Air Force Auxiliary Civil Air Patrol. I'm qualified as a navigator-observer for air and ground search and rescue, qualified in aerial radiological monitoring. I'm not an expert but I'm qualified.

I work in drug interdiction. I have trained and work in critical incident stress debriefing. I've worked with cadets of the Civil Air Patrol in aerospace education, moral leadership and drill and ceremonies.

I tried on three occasions to volunteer for active military service, specifically Vietnam. I was judged unacceptable for military service. All of the above is volunteer work. I believe volunteerism is the fabric of America. We've always risen to any occasion put before us through our volunteers.

For the Vanderbilt Experiment, however, my mother and I were drafted by my country to serve as study specimens. My mother was 22 years old and my father had just returned from military service with the United States Navy. At their expense -- she was very trusting and excitedly cautious about having her next child. She chose Vanderbilt Prenatal Clinic because of their reputation. She trustingly took what they gave her.

Consequently, when they handed her a cup laced with radiation and said, "Drink this. It will be good for your baby," she asked no questions. There was no consent sought and there was no consent given.

As you have already heard by Geoff Sea, and we have documents to prove it, harm was done. Cultural ethics is not a foreign term to most of us. It was used as the foremost defense of the Nazi high command at Nuremberg. 1947 a new science appeared. It actually started before that but it really flowered and flourished in 1947. Young aggressive doctors and researchers drove heard looking for the front seats in this new science.

I understand that. It's understandable. However, accountability comes with privilege. Cultural ethics do not work when they jeopardize people's lives. More importantly, each level of authority must be held accountable to its next level.

For example, I believe doctors are accountable to their patients, not vice versa. I believe lawyers are accountable to their clients, not the reverse. And I believe public servants are not the government. I believe this government is still of the people, by the people and for the people. And public servants are accountable to us, who are the government.

(Applause.)

Thank you for that standing ovation.

I believe the Advisory Committee should be held accountable to its government, us. I believe the President is accountable to its government, we the people. For 48 years my mother did not know she had been used and abused. She had her body violated and my body was violated. But then, of course, I was just a fetus so I'm not sure I qualified as a human being at that point.

We do know that a majority of the radiation that was given to my mother went immediately to the fetus. I believe some 90 percent, something of that nature. She was in fact, in my opinion, raped by the medical profession and the research community. Her body was violated, invaded by something she did not know, something she did not understand, nor something that she agreed to accept. And I believe if you looked up the definition of rape, that's pretty well covered.

Now, she is told at 71 years old, -- and don't tell her I told her how old she is. "Don't notify these little old ladies. It might upset them." Vanderbilt did their research in accordance with the Atomic Energy Commission and the Public Health Service. We can prove that. We have.

Vanderbilt had the records returned to them. They carried on medical monitoring up through the 1960's. But Vanderbilt has refused to release those records to the victims. Some of us got them. I don't know how we got that lucky, but we did. My mother just simply called and said send my records. I'm part of the Vanderbilt Experiment.

And very interestingly, they had her records all the way back to the date of her birth. We don't know how they got them. She wasn't born in Vanderbilt.

And we really appreciate the concern for our psychological well-being. We really do. It's appreciated. But I will tell you that accountability is more than necessary in this case. I will tell you also that as a minister, I was glad to see adoption laws changed. Now children have access to their birth records.

And do you know what? There's been some psychological problems with that. There's been some psychological trauma. I have counseled many of those people. But lives have been saved because medical records have become complete by finding birth records, not to mention the beauty and the joy of this rediscovery of your true family ties.

In conclusion, I'm a patriotic American and I want that understood today. I did not come here to seek special treatment. I do not have an axe to grind, as far as my heritage. I am part Native American. I am part Italian. I am part German and most recently my cousin did a genealogical study on our family and it appears that I am part African-American. I'm good to go.

(Laughter.)

So I stand with all of you today and say, yeah, give me my land back in Tennessee. I'm Cherokee. My great grandmother was on the Trail of Tears. My great grandfather, a German, met her there. I'm not sure where all the other stuff came from but it works for me. I'm a patriotic American. I don't seek any special treatment. But I do feel betrayed and I feel abused by this Committee's report.

They didn't do their job. They did not do their job. Ladies and gentlemen, I expect accountability from my public servants. Don't talk to me of government. I am the government. I vote. And I can't wait for November.

I expect full disclosure now and in the future. No part of national security was enhanced by keeping mine and my mother's experiment a secret but our lives have been changed because of it.

My mother now knows the reason why that as we have gathered our class together and the little old ladies that they were so worried about being upset, you don't know what it's like to be in a room with 45 little old ladies who finally found out they were irradiated. Yeah, they were upset. But none of them had to go to the nursing home. They've gotten a new lease on life and they're ready to fight this thing to the bitter end. I want you to know that.

And they have mandated their families to fight it long after their dead until it's resolved.

Are they psychologically messed up? No. A lot of them sit around and said, "What happened to you?" "I lost my teeth under the gum line." The old joke. The teeth are fine but the gums have to go. Every woman in our study group lost their teeth within five years of the radiation treatment. Every one of them.

Many of their children, we already know harm was done. Three died with cancer. We know that. But in our study group the people my age that have colon cancer and leukemia, I'm one of three that we know of who hasn't had a major, major physical illness in their life.

I expect accountability. Your report -- that report recommends apology without compensation for experiments where subjects were wronged but not harmed. As us if we were harmed. As us if we can deal with it. I said before your august Committee, wonderfully credentialed people, I looked each one of the eye and told them what I'm telling you. But I noticed on that Committee there wasn't experiment survivor anywhere to be found. That's an atrocity.

I ask that your recommendations show that every committee henceforth have a radiation survivor on that committee, whether they're credentialed or not they deserve an opportunity, sir. We're still the government. We are still the government. We are still the government.

(Applause.)

I'm calling you to account. You didn't do this. You doctors here today had nothing to do with these experiments. This military officer and the others in this room did not conduct those atomic experiments, but those researchers did. And we as Americans need to stand up and say, here it is, guys. Here's the situation. I agree with the Colonel. Let's move forward.

I would be a poor preacher if I didn't tell a joke.

She hasn't held up the sign yet.

MS. MATHER: Oh, that was up a few minutes ago.

MR. HAMM: Oh, you were so enhanced you just forgot the sign?

MS. MATHER: Yes. That was five minutes ago.

MR. HAMM: A gentleman was trying to tee off at the golf course and he kept making swings at the ball and he kept hitting an anthill, much like my golfing. The first swing, he killed 100,000 ants; second swing, he killed 200,000 ants; third swing, one ant looked at the other and say, what are we going to do? He said, I don't know but if we're going to survive, we'd better get on the ball.

(Laughter.)

MS. MATHER: Thank you.

MR. HAMM: On last statement. We need to get on the ball. It happened. Okay. It happened. Let's take the guards down. Let's take the walls down. Let's take the barriers down and everybody say it happened. We're Americans. We can sit down. We can work this out. We can move forward. We can come to a conclusion.

And I want to tell you this is a statement by my boss, Jesus Christ. There is nothing that is done in secret that shall not be revealed.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

(Applause.)

MR. BYRD: Our next speaker is Gerry Mousso from the Rochester Radiation Victims/Survivors.

MR. MOUSSO: I am Gerry Mousso and I represent 11 families primarily in the Rochester, New York area, who are the survivors of an 18 person plutonium injection experiment in 1946 and 1947. I'd just like to say to the Rev, Amen.

MR. HAMM: Thanks. I needed that.

MR. MOUSSO: And I wonder if you would give me permission to pass the basket at this time?

MR. HAMM: I was hoping somebody would bring that up.

MR. MOUSSO: I thought you would.

I've enjoyed the presentations today. Although I'm dead tired, I feel energized by these recent presentations. I know some people really showed some emotions today. I guess we all did. I know I certainly did.

I want to thank everybody for participating.

Early on in my experience having to do with this plutonium experiment, I felt that -- I felt devastated when I learned my uncle was involved in the experiment, so I had a feeling that other people felt similar. So what I did is formed a support group. It's sole purpose was to hear each other out and offer support and perhaps guidance.

Well, that turned into something else very shortly. We got very ambitious in our naivete because we set some goals. We wanted to demand an apology from the federal government for this experiment. We also felt that it would serve the best interest -- the memory and the best interest of our departed brethren if we could have some sort of a compensation program in their memory.

And then our main goal, and it always has been our main goal, was to do whatever we could to prevent this type of thing from happening again. You've got to realize at that time we had no knowledge whatsoever of the magnitude of this radiation problem. Soon after we set our goals, we were approached by a young lady from Albuquerque, New Mexico, a reporter, who happened to stumble on this story.

She wanted to do a story about our relatives and we encouraged her. We helped her. She went on, of course, to win a Pullitzer Prize. And the National Press award for investigative journalism, which she said was even more important because that pays $25,000.

Soon after that we had -- we were called to testify before a House Subcommittee. It was on C-SPAN. It's the first time I got exposed to Dr. Egilman. And, of course, your first meeting with him is unforgettable, as you know. And I cherished the time that I met him.

As a result of this committee hearing, we were able to get a lot of assistance from elected officials. We got more records. That was followed up by further disclosures from the Department of Energy. I got about -- in about the term of a week, I got about 85 requests for immediate participation. We managed somehow to answer most of those requests, and this brought further publicity to our cause.

Remember, now, our main purpose was to draw attention to this fact and hopefully lead to measures to prevent this from happening again.

This went on for a while. Then we got exposed to the people in the Taskforce and we found that the Taskforce was heaven sent for us because it provided the guidance and knowledge that we needed to fight our battle.

We were dismayed with the President's Advisory Committee. Remember, we were still pretty naive at that point and we had high hopes for that. But when the preliminary drafts came out, we saw that this was a flawed process. Terribly flawed. It was a stacked deck, if you will. It wasn't a balanced membership at all. In fact, I found out later that we had no representative on that committee whatsoever. And this leads me to address this one concern of ours, of our group. And believe me, I'm speaking only for our group.

This IWG Committee, I hope that we don't make the same mistake we did initially with the Advisory Committee in keeping our qualified representatives and spokes people off it. I think it would help the government immeasurably, as it will help us, if we're represented. So I advise you to take a look at that.

MS. MATHER: You have two minutes.

MR. MOUSSO: Even though we're dissatisfied with the President's Advisory Committee, two of our goals were met. I was at the White House when the President apologized to all of the experimentees. Strangely enough, we're among 30 people who are recommended for compensation. Thirty people out of the tens of thousands. I can't figure out why because in my mind, many of you went through experiments just as bad.

I've got some more here to say but I just wanted to address this one thing on compensation and one of the goals that we didn't meet. One of the goals we didn't meet in its entirety was this setting up ironclad preventative measures to prevent this type of thing from happening again. We don't see any criminal charges available to be levied, heavy criminal penalties to be levied against people who don't adhere to ethics. And of course, we hope that the Code of Ethics is the Nuremberg Code. So that will put some teeth in these preventative measures and prevent these types of experiences from happening again.

In closing, I'd just like to address that compensation thing. When you're considering compensation, you've got to look at a lot of factors. For example, 18 people lost their lives in that plutonium injection. Those 18 people were responsible for the government setting up a database that established limits of radiation that were safe for people to work with. Whole new industries sprang up around that. Many lives were saved in the scientific area.

So these people made a tremendous contribution and that should be kept in mind when compensation is addressed.

And in closing, I'd just like to say this. Our people feel that there's a good chance of the government shooting itself in the foot in regards to this radiation problem and we think that this would be in no one's interest. I saw evidence of a lot of hostility and animosity and stumbling around today here. I just hope that the emotions caused most of these things. I suspect they were. I hope that we can work together and I hope the government doesn't stumble because the government has a real problem with its credibility.

I mean, this is a massive problem and we don't have to add to it with this radiation business.

My son approached me a couple of days ago when I was going. He stopped by the house and he said, "Where are you going?" I said, "Washington." He said, "Radiation, again?" "Yeah." He said, "You hope to ever conclude anything? Do you ever hope to accomplish anything?" And I said, "Yeah, I think so. That's why I'm going."

I think that's why many of us are here because we do have hopes. He said, "Dad, where's your head been except for the golf course for the last 10 years?" And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "You know, the government doesn't solve problems. It creates them." I said, "Where did you hear that philosophy?" He says, "Well, that's what a lot of my friends think."

Now, this kid is 28. He's in a very good management program, fast track. Now, if his friends feel that way, I think we've got a real problem facing us in this country with this attitude towards government and I hope we're not part of the problem. I hope we can start solving some of these problems.

If they're going to shoot anybody in the foot, shoot Acie.

(Laughter.)

COL. BAILEY: Colonel Bailey. Before we get to the floor questions I've got to apologize to Ms. Gloria Watson from Cincinnati.

MS. NELSON: Nelson.

COL. BAILEY: Gloria Nelson. I'm sorry. Forgive me, again.

I've got to keep some kind of control. There are controls that we have to have because of litigation. But I really want to -- I paid for you to come, by the way, ma'am. We paid. The government paid and had involvement.

I want to hear your story.

MS. NELSON: You haven't paid to hear it yet.

(Laughter.)

COL. BAILEY: Well, first of all, accept my apologies and I want to hear your story.

Take your time.

MS. NELSON: What I do want -- what I do hope that happens is that on this National Bio-Ethics -- I can't even talk now. Well, this committee that's coming up, that you do have a lay person from the Cincinnati Families involved on it so that we can give our input and we can watch what's being done and what's not being done and what should be put in and what's not being put into it.

That's it for now.

COL. BAILEY: Let me get Doris.

MS. BAKER: Doris Baker. My name is Doris Baker from Cincinnati Radiation Families Victims Organization. I'm the General Manager for CFRVO.

And once again, Colonel Bailey, would you please explain to me what litigation we can't talk about when I can't ask for my great grandmother's records and the other families of Cincinnati? Because the records that I received from the hospital, they are not all right. They have typing paper over top of them and somebody typed over them.

I sent the DOE, the DOD and another organization of the government a copy of those papers. They said that they would get back with me. They have been telling me this since 1994.

The Advisory Committee -- let me finish and -- you know, just bear with me and try to remember everything that I'm asking you.

The Advisory Committee, they shammed me since 1994. Dr. Tucker promised me some thing and we have not received them. A lot of the family members need counseling. A lot of family members need to understand their relatives' records. And I'm just -- I'm through, because I'm already sick. And now I have people coming down on me because they said I stepped on too many people's toes in this town for the last year. And I'm catching a whole lot of flack from it. That includes my financial state because I'm being investigated and I don't know by who as of yet.

So, thank you.

COL. BAILEY: As concerns the records, I'm not aware of the specific incident you mentioned. I know the records are maintained by the University of Cincinnati. What I'd like for you to do is provide to me the inputs to date that you've just mentioned and I can follow up. But as far as knowing what happened with the records in Cincinnati, I have no sense of that at all.

MS. BAKER: Well, sir, could you tell me -- I sent letter to Dr. O'Toole and Secretary O'Leary's office. I sent letter to the DOE's office. I even have a case manager's number that they've given me.

And another thing. They sent me an application and that application, that's for veterans. My great grandmother was not a veteran. And they asked me questions that -- how can I answer those questions if I didn't know my great grandmother ever was in a radiation study.

COL. BAILEY: Do you have copies of the documents with you, by any chance?

MS. BAKER: No, I don't, because I sent --

COL. BAILEY: What I'll do, I'll give you my address and telephone and you talk to me directly about this after the fact, and we'll get on it.

MS. BAKER: Yes, sir. Thank you very much.

COL. BAILEY: You're welcome.

MR. BYRDnet?

MS. GORDON: I just wanted to clarify that something that we're seeing here is that the victims are being made responsible for solving their own problems. In addition to having been irradiated against our will, sometimes without our knowledge, then we become the responsible ones for resolving how we get problems solved.

It seems to me -- and that the problem is part of the reason why it's given that it's too complicated or it's too complex or it's too difficult or it's too expensive. And I would just like to reiterate that if it wasn't too expensive to do the testing, it wouldn't be too expensive for the government to start testing again if they were allowed to do so. And that's got to be a heck of a lot more expensive. I mean, it costs $10-20 million just for one door and in one test and they use two doors in every tests of underground tests.

So I have to say that we shouldn't have to bear the burden of providing the proof, proving that it's true, making you understand it, changing the mainstream science which we have indeed done. But we fight it every day and then we think we've got it all established. Then we turn around and start from ground zero, so to speak, and have to do it again every time there's a new committee. We have to re-prove the science again. That's not acceptable.

Also, the parameters, I don't know if I clarified exactly the parameters that were used by the Advisory Committee and which experiments were even looked at. They stopped in 1974. The excuse given for that was that then there were regulations. Well, there were regulations for HEW experiments. Those guidelines were put into effect in 1974, but they didn't cover most of the other experiments until 1990.

There were experiments done, such as the PI-MI-SON experiment at Los Alamos. We knew about it. The Committee knew about it. They didn't address it. It was a radiation experiment, plain and simple. It was never looked at.

And somehow or other, the public was made to believe that these regulations which HEW put into effect in '74 actually justified exempting everything after that. Not true. Absolutely not true. Not acceptable.

Because the problems weren't addressed does not make them go away. They are never going to go away until they're properly addressed and properly dealt with. And that is the message that has to be heard and accepted and sooner or later, if it's even our grandchildren, somebody will finally get a resolution to these problems.

MR. BYRD: We've got less than 20 minutes so I'm going to ask each respondent to take less than a minute.

MR. SEA: Geoffrey Sea. Three of the experiments mentioned here draw attention to the inadequacy -- and that's a polite word -- of the 1 in 1,000 risk value for doing medical follow-up and notification. Now, let me explain what 1 in 1,000 is supposed to mean.

It's supposed to mean 1 in 1,000 risk of dying from the exposure. If we look at Vanderbilt to begin with, at Vanderbilt we know that at least three children out of about 650 died from radiogenic cancer. That's greater than 1 in 1,000.

In the radium case, we know that far greater than 1 in 1,000 died from the cancers. The way they got rid of the Vanderbilt figure was to review the dosimetry and said it couldn't possibly have happened because the children couldn't have gotten the dose. Therefore, even though we've got the bodies lying on the ground, it couldn't have happened.

In the radium case, they used a different tactic. They ignored the 1 in 1,000 figure and they said that's really only 1 in 1,000 for each individual disease. So because brain cancer is less than 1 in 1,000 and thyroid cancer is less than 1 in 1,000, et cetera, we're not going to look at them.

In other words, they could all die. One hundred percent could die. But if no more than 1 in 1,000 die from any particular disease, we're not going to look at them.

Now, in another city which I can't name, but it begins with a C and it ends in an I and it's famous for it's five-way chili and Bengals football team, the perpetrator of the experiments, who I can't name but it rhymes with head banger, and he said that eight out of some 88 patients died from the treatment. He admitted that. That's well over 1 in 1,000. But they said that didn't count because the patients were sick to begin with. They weren't healthy.

So it was part of a treatment. so if it was part of a treatment program, you could kill more than 1 in 1,000. In fact, you could kill all of them.

All right. Now, these same three cases also draw attention to demand Number 7 of the -- what is it? The nine point plan. Demand Number 7 is that the perpetrators be held criminally liable. They draw attention to it because each of these three cases, and some of the others, some of the perpetrators are still alive.

Now, this demand -- and I'll let you read it for yourself in our version -- goes back to the Moscow Declaration of 1943 signed by Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin, in which they said the perpetrators of German atrocities, quote, "will be brought back to the scene of their crimes and judged on the spot by the peoples whom they have outraged."

Now, I'd like the government officials here to reflect on the fact that Joseph Stalin has been more responsive to the demands of the victims of atrocities than the Advisory Committee or the Interagency Working Group have so far been. Because he gave us one of our nine points and you've given us none.

Thank you.

(Applause.)